Something that I've noticed about Play Action

[rhombic21]

So, at this point in the year there's basically no point in talking extensively about the AI problems anymore. But one of the major things that I've been trying to do lately is to develop a viable pro-style, OU/pre-Rodriguez Michigan style offense. And frankly, it doesn't work. And the reason that it doesn't work is because play action is broken from under center sets.

There's a basic difference with pass protection and the pass rush, between pressure resulting from defenders defeating block attempts by the OL versus defenders coming in untouched because nobody even attempted to block them that I don't think the game quite captures correctly. On the game, most of the pressure is generated by people coming in completely untouched because nobody ever even attempts to block them. In real life, some pressure comes in this form, but most pressure comes from defenders defeating block attempts -- that is that they are identified and somebody attempts to block them, but they simply defeat the block. On the game, when offensive players actually attempt to pass block the correct guy, they almost always completely block him out of the play.

Basically, the issue as it relates to this topic is that you cannot block the blitz with play action on the game due to poor protection schemes, and since running the ball invites the blitz, and play action is theoretically the way that most of these pro-style teams get big plays in the passing game, that presents a significant problem. On the game, if you try to run PA into a blitz, and the other person pass commits, it's basically a sack every time. And the reason is that the line, particularly the offensive tackles and the center, will often times simply allow defenders to run right past them and will end up blocking nobody. The only reason PA ever works at all against the blitz is because often times there will be multiple defenders who are completely unblocked, but who run and tackle the QB and take themselves out of the play. So if the person pass commits, and most people pass commit on every down, which causes those defenders to ignore the HB, then there's basically nothing that you can do to pick up the blitz using PA. Hopefully part of this gets fixed next year, or you can at least try to do something with it via slide protection.

However, I have noticed that there is a difference in at least some play action plays from shotgun. Plays like the PA Choice plays and the PA Jet Sweep plays actually block everybody in most schemes -- meaning that the defense either has to bring more blitzers than blockers or has to have defenders defeat blocks in order to get pressure. As a result, those plays are quite effective at beating the blitz, which is somewhat ironic given that beating the blitz generally isn't a problem for shotgun anyways, like it is under center. I'm not sure yet why this is the case, but the net result of it is that a shotgun based spread option offense, even if you don't use a ton of actual option plays, will inherently be more effective than an under center pro-style offense on this game.

For an example of this in action, look at two plays. Shotgun Normal Slot PA Choice versus Ace Normal Slot PA HB Look. Formation wise, those are basically identical formations except one is shotgun and one is under center. Additionally, they have the same basic blocking schemes in terms of # of receivers going out on routes. Both use a TE on a chip/delay route and then have all 3 receivers plus the HB running pass routes. But what you'll notice is that the Shotgun PA Choice play will actually pick up 6 blitzers, since all 5 of the linemen and the TE will engage defenders, while the Ace Normal play will not pick up 6 blitzers because often times either the RT, TE, or Center ends up blocking nobody, leaving free rushers coming right at the QB.

[SweaterVest09]

So, at this point in the year there's basically no point in talking extensively about the AI problems anymore. But one of the major things that I've been trying to do lately is to develop a viable pro-style, OU/pre-Rodriguez Michigan style offense. And frankly, it doesn't work. And the reason that it doesn't work is because play action is broken from under center sets.

There's a basic difference with pass protection and the pass rush, between pressure resulting from defenders defeating block attempts by the OL versus defenders coming in untouched because nobody even attempted to block them that I don't think the game quite captures correctly. On the game, most of the pressure is generated by people coming in completely untouched because nobody ever even attempts to block them. In real life, some pressure comes in this form, but most pressure comes from defenders defeating block attempts -- that is that they are identified and somebody attempts to block them, but they simply defeat the block. On the game, when offensive players actually attempt to pass block the correct guy, they almost always completely block him out of the play.

Basically, the issue as it relates to this topic is that you cannot block the blitz with play action on the game due to poor protection schemes, and since running the ball invites the blitz, and play action is theoretically the way that most of these pro-style teams get big plays in the passing game, that presents a significant problem. On the game, if you try to run PA into a blitz, and the other person pass commits, it's basically a sack every time. And the reason is that the line, particularly the offensive tackles and the center, will often times simply allow defenders to run right past them and will end up blocking nobody. The only reason PA ever works at all against the blitz is because often times there will be multiple defenders who are completely unblocked, but who run and tackle the QB and take themselves out of the play. So if the person pass commits, and most people pass commit on every down, which causes those defenders to ignore the HB, then there's basically nothing that you can do to pick up the blitz using PA. Hopefully part of this gets fixed next year, or you can at least try to do something with it via slide protection.

However, I have noticed that there is a difference in at least some play action plays from shotgun. Plays like the PA Choice plays and the PA Jet Sweep plays actually block everybody in most schemes -- meaning that the defense either has to bring more blitzers than blockers or has to have defenders defeat blocks in order to get pressure. As a result, those plays are quite effective at beating the blitz, which is somewhat ironic given that beating the blitz generally isn't a problem for shotgun anyways, like it is under center. I'm not sure yet why this is the case, but the net result of it is that a shotgun based spread option offense, even if you don't use a ton of actual option plays, will inherently be more effective than an under center pro-style offense on this game.

For an example of this in action, look at two plays. Shotgun Normal Slot PA Choice versus Ace Normal Slot PA HB Look. Formation wise, those are basically identical formations except one is shotgun and one is under center. Additionally, they have the same basic blocking schemes in terms of # of receivers going out on routes. Both use a TE on a chip/delay route and then have all 3 receivers plus the HB running pass routes. But what you'll notice is that the Shotgun PA Choice play will actually pick up 6 blitzers, since all 5 of the linemen and the TE will engage defenders, while the Ace Normal play will not pick up 6 blitzers because often times either the RT, TE, or Center ends up blocking nobody, leaving free rushers coming right at the QB.

Come on Rhombic, take a hit. Jump on the spread option bandwagon, presents a different (But equal or greater i think) challenge than the having to tryand outsmart your opponent out of a pro style set. Making the split second reads (Even more difficult, because the read key is not definite, like it should ne) is quite challenging and fun, since i assume the reason you want to run a pro style so bad is for the simulation effect. It's just that something about the option (Even out of PA) messes with the AI's head, makes them freeze up for some reason, theres no way they actually changed the blocking just for spread PA.

[rhombic21]

It is different. The blocking schemes in shotgun are different than under center sets. Again, go and look at it.

I have been trying to develop the under center scheme because that's what OU runs in real life, and thus that's probably the offense that I'll use next year on the game. And frankly, the passing game is so easy on this game once you learn how to use precision passing against zones that anybody can run a successful offense from the gun. There's a reason that everybody and their brother runs SG 2 Back and 5 wide.

[lseknightpride]

rhombic you are too smart for your own good.

The game isn't ever going to be as good as you could make it.

[SweaterVest09]

It is different. The blocking schemes in shotgun are different than under center sets. Again, go and look at it.

I have been trying to develop the under center scheme because that's what OU runs in real life, and thus that's probably the offense that I'll use next year on the game. And frankly, the passing game is so easy on this game once you learn how to use precision passing against zones that anybody can run a successful offense from the gun. There's a reason that everybody and their brother runs SG 2 Back and 5 wide.

Since when? I mean, i'm a PS3 player, and back when i had a PS2 and asked my friend who played on Xbox questions, there were distinct diferences in trends, but everyone that i've encountered (50 games) has either been a I Form/Ace mix, or Goaline offense.

[I OU a Beatn]

Since when? I mean, i'm a PS3 player, and back when i had a PS2 and asked my friend who played on Xbox questions, there were distinct diferences in trends, but everyone that i've encountered (50 games) has either been a I Form/Ace mix, or Goaline offense.

That's because 98% of the people on PS3 have absolutely no clue what they're doing.

[rhombic21]

Since when? I mean, i'm a PS3 player, and back when i had a PS2 and asked my friend who played on Xbox questions, there were distinct diferences in trends, but everyone that i've encountered (50 games) has either been a I Form/Ace mix, or Goaline offense.

Everybody runs I form/Ace/Goal line triple option, and then when you shut that down, they come out in 5 wide or Shotgun 2 Back and pass the ball. As much as people complain about superhuman DBs and LBs, the passing attack on this game is ridiculously easy from shotgun once you learn how to use hot routes and precision pass against zone, which is at least partly due to the fact that the DL gets almost zero pressure if you don't blitz, and anybody who has any clue about what they're doing in the passing game is going to be able to pick up and defeat the blitz -- particularly from shotgun. Also, the defensive playbooks are pretty terrible on NCAA. They're missing basic plays, like a Cover 2 buc play from Dime, and most of the zone blitzes, particularly those that rush 5, are simply ineffective without major adjustments. If they had some of the defenses from Madden, it might be different.

[SweaterVest09]

Everybody runs I form/Ace/Goal line triple option, and then when you shut that down, they come out in 5 wide or Shotgun 2 Back and pass the ball. As much as people complain about superhuman DBs and LBs, the passing attack on this game is ridiculously easy from shotgun once you learn how to use hot routes and precision pass against zone, which is at least partly due to the fact that the DL gets almost zero pressure if you don't blitz, and anybody who has any clue about what they're doing in the passing game is going to be able to pick up and defeat the blitz -- particularly from shotgun. Also, the defensive playbooks are pretty terrible on NCAA. They're missing basic plays, like a Cover 2 buc play from Dime, and most of the zone blitzes, particularly those that rush 5, are simply ineffective without major adjustments. If they had some of the defenses from Madden, it might be different.

When you say precision passing, are you referring to the vision cone?

[I OU a Beatn]

When you say precision passing, are you referring to the vision cone?

No, precision passing is when you use the left analog stick to direct which direction you want the ball thrown. So if you're running a corner route and you want the ball over the receiver's right shoulder, you push the analog stick to the right and press the receiver icon.

[rhombic21]

No, I'm referring to lead passing. Lead passing high and to the outside is basically money against cover 3 if you have a tall WR, and lead passing high is money against short (yellow hook) zones if you have a tall WR. Combined with the fact that these zones get zero pressure on the QB with the down linemen, and it's incredibly easy to pick them apart. Then you throw in WR screens and it's impossible to be stopped. Lead passing high in general seems to greatly reduce the likelihood of the DB making a play on the ball, even if you throw over the middle right at where the defender is. The only time it'll get picked is if your QB has low throwing ratings and thus throws way off target, or if you try to do it on intermediate dig routes. But on things like slants, streaks, wheels, fades, it greatly reduces the chance that the ball will be intercepted. If you take a team that has a good QB and at least one good big WR, you can dominate in the passing game with ease.

[SweaterVest09]

No, I'm referring to lead passing. Lead passing high and to the outside is basically money against cover 3 if you have a tall WR, and lead passing high is money against short (yellow hook) zones if you have a tall WR. Combined with the fact that these zones get zero pressure on the QB with the down linemen, and it's incredibly easy to pick them apart. Then you throw in WR screens and it's impossible to be stopped. Lead passing high in general seems to greatly reduce the likelihood of the DB making a play on the ball, even if you throw over the middle right at where the defender is. The only time it'll get picked is if your QB has low throwing ratings and thus throws way off target, or if you try to do it on intermediate dig routes. But on things like slants, streaks, wheels, fades, it greatly reduces the chance that the ball will be intercepted. If you take a team that has a good QB and at least one good big WR, you can dominate in the passing game with ease.

Did you get to play the beta of the new game? I remember seeing threads from years back where CDJ talked about going to demonstrations with you, do you know what it's like now?(The precise passing v. zone)

Just from the videos, it looks like you need the classic Mickey Andrews attack, blitz 6 and put 5 in man to man, because with how fast the ball travels now, your zone wont be able to get it, i dont think it will even be possible to play with teams like Hawaii, or BYU with terrible defenses. Looks like players will just rotate between teams with 95+ defense.

[rhombic21]

No, I didn't play the beta, but I don't think the ball travels any faster than it did before, based on the videos that I've seen.

[SweaterVest09]

No, I didn't play the beta, but I don't think the ball travels any faster than it did before, based on the videos that I've seen.

The new BYU Full Drive one on IGN looks like it to me. Not dramatically faster, but i noticed it. If that's true then mobile QB's are more dangerous than ever if your forced into man to stop the pass, cuz then they just drop back, take a breath and run it around the edge for an easy first down every time, or pick apart the zone when they force you back into it.

[rhombic21]

Nah, that looks identical to '08 to me.

[SweaterVest09]

Nah, that looks identical to '08 to me.

Eh, maybe. I was looking around on youtuve and ran accross some of your vids, what made tayloryoung so good? From the highlites it looked like an average game, well, pardon me, not average, a game between two straight players.

[Moostache2]

In real life, some pressure comes in this form, but most pressure comes from defenders defeating block attempts -- that is that they are identified and somebody attempts to block them, but they simply defeat the block.


You didn't watch too many Notre Dame games last year did you?!?![down] ;)

I understand what you're saying, but I have not seen really accurate pass blocking animations in an EA title ever. I was never a huge fan of the 2K titles, but one thing that they nailed was the OL-DL interactions for pass blocking.

I have not used any spread option at all in 2008 - tried it once or twice and quickly found I liked running it even less than I like watching it on TV - which is to say I would rather sing the Michigan fight song for 3 hours straight than watch a team run spread option all day long. I much prefer to run an under-center offense regardless of whether or not it works as well as the spread attacks.

[SweaterVest09]

You didn't watch too many Notre Dame games last year did you?!?![down] ;)

I understand what you're saying, but I have not seen really accurate pass blocking animations in an EA title ever. I was never a huge fan of the 2K titles, but one thing that they nailed was the OL-DL interactions for pass blocking.

I have not used any spread option at all in 2008 - tried it once or twice and quickly found I liked running it even less than I like watching it on TV - which is to say I would rather sing the Michigan fight song for 3 hours straight than watch a team run spread option all day long. I much prefer to run an under-center offense regardless of whether or not it works as well as the spread attacks.

Mostly because the spread option never really tries to break anything, while under center plays, the RB can cut and get into the open field (In spread the RB has run laterally a lot more than forward), and they try to go deep with the ball.

I enjoy watching FLorida or WVU, because they have the athletes to break it open, but Michigan will be boring to watch, because they're not going to break anything, no playmakers.

[BigBodySS]

And the reason that it doesn't work is because play action is broken from under center sets.



I completely agree with your sentiments, almost to the point that I have completely scrapped using PA at all. Which really stinks because I run atleast 25-30 times a game so a well placed/planned/played out PA would be money for my offense. But I just almost always get sacked so it's really a waste of time.

However, I did throw in that "almost" and that's because I've found one trick to not get sacked on the PA. Let me preface this by saying I can't pass for $hit, so I never use Shotgun. I imagine PA out of SG would be effective as well, but for me the trick is to put the QB in motion with a rollout.

Since I start all my plays from under center I have to have a designed rollout with my QB to get a PA pass off. It doesn't matter how fast he is either. Just a small rollout will do wonders. You have to have the correct pattern called, such as a FB flat or a TE roll (which always results in my TE leading my team in receptions) but it can work for you.

For a guy that finishes the season with his #1 WR having 16 catches I have to use these types of plays to complete passes. It would help me out a ton if EA could fix undercenter drop back PA's as well.

[Totalpackage83]

I think EA toned down the PA pass in this years game as a result of how broken the PA pass was in 07. The problem is that it is overdone. In NCAA 07 if your safeties were in zone coverage they would fall for playaction 90% of the time. No matter the down and no matter the distance. It didn't matter whether you used the pass commit either. I can't remember how many times I played someone who was Ohio St. (Ginn 99SPD, Gonzales 94SPD) or LSU (Carter 99SPD, Bowe 93SPD) and they ran I-Form PA Streaks on 3rd and long or 4th and long. The safety in zone coverage would fall for PA leaving your defensive back one on one with those blazing fast WR's trying to cover a streak route. The only way to stop this was to sack the QB before he could deliver the pass. Its just an over correction on EA's part in my opinion. PA is a huge part of the passing game in most prostyle attacks but not in this game. Maybe that is one of the things they correct for 09 but I doubt it. We'll have to wait and see. I just hope they don't revert back to the 07 days were people ran PA pass on 3rd and long every play. That just isn't realistic.

[Warbird]

I like PAs, but they take so dang long to carry out sometimes. PA QB Choice out of one of the shotgun sets is a great play, though; It works just like Slot Cross, but the PA throws the DBs just enough to let my slot receiver sneak by them. Great play in the red zone.[cool]

[STARTER]

I think the game is design for watching sportscenter and college gameday final and not actual football knowlegde. The spread offense has exploded on the schene and with the sucess of Florida and WVU, EA decides to place a premium on the shotgun formation. I don't like any shotgun or option is my offense. But the game forces me to use shotgun because of the poor plays. I need the 18yrd deep comeback out of I-formation, so I can go max protect and beat the 1 on 1 outside. You're right Rhomonic, the block on the PA is broken. But the o-line play for under center is broken. I think a pro-style can be effective in 09 becuase of clide protection and better passing plays from under center.

[rhombic21]

Yeah, I'm hopeful about that too. I've read elsewhere that EA has stated that in addition to adding slide protection, they've also re-worked some of the pass block logic and animations, so it's quite possible that it'll be fixed next year, or at least that it will be fixed to a point that the user can make some adjustments to get it to work effectively.

[Travis7401]

I don't run under-center offense much because I don't enjoy getting sacked instantly or having my quarterback get smashed before he can hand the ball off. I have watched a lot of your videos (rhombic) and it seems like you do a pretty well with your under-center offense, particularly your stick control in the running game. I am amazed at how successful you have been! So don't give up on it! Plus I have a feeling that Under-Center will work a lot better in 09.

All that being said, I have noticed that the only under center PA passes that are successful against me have one of the tight ends on a blue (delayed) flat route. The only one I could find in my playbook was in the Ace Big formation. Other than that the pass commit strategy smashes PA passes even with only a basic 3 or 4 man rush (not even pinched or crashed). After looking more into it, I noticed that a lot of the successful shotgun PA passes also have blue routes. I wonder if the blue route plays have better blocking AI?

[rhombic21]

Yes! It's a combination of the blue routes, but also the offensive line attack/blocking angles. After looking at it extensively, it appears to me that there's a serious problem with many of the under center plays which cause the center or guard to completely whiff on the block on the DT (regardless of ratings), leaving that player coming in virtually untouched everytime (at least against 4 man defensive lines). Normally that's not a problem because if the defense doesn't pass commit, then the DT just tackles the HB and takes himself out of the play. But if the defense pass commits and the DT ignores the HB, then it's either a sack or a pressure/scramble situation that throws off the timing of the play. You can try to have a FB pick him up by assigning him to block, but then if the defense blitzes other players, you have no blockers left over to pick them up. Also, if you try to hot route a TE to block, he takes several steps backwards before engaging anybody, which often results in players running right between him and the tackle. Only blue routes or plays that already have the TE staying in to block seem to work effectively.

[Travis7401]

I am glad you have noticed the "blue route phenomenon" as well. I agree completely about the guard and center ignoring the DT on most PA passes. Seems like the blue route helps a little bit. The guard and center ignoring the DT is the main reason I refuse to run much under center offense. It isn't just play-action plays either. It seems like there are also several stretch and counter plays where the DT is left unblocked. As a former lineman it makes me want to do the old controller toss.

I just wish EA could program Blockers to function at a YAL / Pop Warner level. The sixth graders I coached last year could literally do a better job pass blocking than a 95 ovr guard in this game. They might get their little skulls crushed, but at least they would get in the way for a millisecond

[TxAg05]

Rhombic,

Which defensive sets/plays are you using to test? Also, are you using default AA slider settings?

[rhombic21]

I looked at 4-3 and 4-4 defenses, since those are the two most widely used online, and I was on AA since that's the skill level used online.

Since I wanted to know how to get PA to work against blitzing defenses, I looked at a variety of blitzing schemes (mostly man to man schemes), particularly those that blitzed 6 and had 5 in straight man to man. Basically I wanted to see if there was a way to get a max protect PA pass play from under center to work against a max blitz.

If we weren't less than 2 months away from '09 dropping (and there were more than 5 of us still playing the game), I'd make a video.

[Warbird]

When you hot route the TE to block, have you tried motioning him just inside the OT, then snapping the ball?

[rhombic21]

It doesn't really work effectively, plus it gives away the play action. The game has huge issues with ridiculous ability of DBs man coverage to jump certain routes that would normally be good against man cover 0, poor design of many of the pass routes, and horrendous pass protection in general that just compounds the problem. Some of the pass plays from these under center sets are so broken that you essentially have to hot route every single receiver to either block or to run a different pass pattern. Bottom line is there is no way to accurately replicate a pro-style offense on the game. You may still be able to run an effective under-center offense, but it won't really be similar to the kinds of things that teams would do in real life.

[Warbird]

I feel your pain on that. I've used Corners out of AceBig, hot routed my secondary receiver, both TEs, and the running back to block and I STILL get sacked. Stupid pinched/crashed 3-man d-line...

[TxAg05]

Didn't have much time before work, but I had quite a bit of success with these PA plays against man blitzes.

1. Ace 4WR Trips/ PA Deep Post - three step drop shuffle to left hit your slot receiver almost every time (triangle receiver i think)

2. I-Form Twins/ PA smash - roll right then left behind your FB, precision pass and hit your TE over the middle 95% of the time

3. I-Form Normal/ PA Boot - three step drop, roll right and immediately pass to your X receiver (square receiver) - this play must be executed very quickly to be successful.

All testing used AA settings, and I tested a variety of defensive sets like the 4-3, 3-4, and the 4-2-5 mainly. These plays however most likely would not work with zone coverage because they all take advantage of DB's on man coverage and with precision passing and on default AA is like taking candy from a baby.

On a side note, I very rarely user catch unless I throw an off balance pass and I need to come back to the ball or break my route to attempt a catch.

Give these a try if you get the chance.

[rhombic21]

The problem that you have to make sure is that you're using them against defenses that are pass commiting. Online most people who run a ton of man blitzes will pass commit every down, whether they think it's a pass or not.

[TxAg05]

The problem that you have to make sure is that you're using them against defenses that are pass commiting. Online most people who run a ton of man blitzes will pass commit every down, whether they think it's a pass or not.

Not sure I completely understand. Are you saying the user will take the role of a DB and better be able to react to a PA play rather than an A.I. controlled DB? This does make sense as it would be easier for your opponent to jump the route because of the delay when the PA begins. However, I think it would be risky to try this.

Am I on the same page here?

[rhombic21]

Pass commit is when you press up on the right analog stick shortly after the snap of the ball. It causes the defense to ignore the fake to the HB. The reason that these plays work normally is that 2 or 3 unblocked defenders run and tackle the HB on the fake, giving the QB time to throw. But if the person pass commits, they will ignore the HB and sack the QB, often times before the icons to throw even come up.

[TxAg05]

Pass commit is when you press up on the right analog stick shortly after the snap of the ball. It causes the defense to ignore the fake to the HB. The reason that these plays work normally is that 2 or 3 unblocked defenders run and tackle the HB on the fake, giving the QB time to throw. But if the person pass commits, they will ignore the HB and sack the QB, often times before the icons to throw even come up.

Oh ok, I see now, I don't remember what all the analog options are called. I wasn't thinking clearly on "pass commit" as in the defense is pass committed and not the user.

In that case when you test do you have someone else playing defense or can you at least hit the analog stick for defense and run the play yourself?

If this is the case on pass commit man blitzes wouldn't it be crucial that you have a FB on any PA. Assuming that your opponent will pass commit then the DL should not ignore the FB and he should buy you a second or two to get the play off? I would try more PA plays that allow you to roll out behind your FB.

[rhombic21]

I use a second controller and pass commit during the PA animation. This is what I'm trying to explain. Using the FB isn't sufficient because down linemen, in addition to the blitzers, are coming free, so when they ignore the fake (as happens when pass commit is used), they will be on top of the QB before he can do anything. In short, the play works as though the offense has at least one fewer blockers than they actually do, because at least one player (and sometimes multiple players) don't even make a block attempt on anybody. It's not that they try to block and simply get beat. They don't even engage or attempt to block anybody (or they only do so after it's already too late).

[TxAg05]

I will have to give it another shot tonight and see what I come up with.

[AHaze81188]

I use a second controller and pass commit during the PA animation. This is what I'm trying to explain. Using the FB isn't sufficient because down linemen, in addition to the blitzers, are coming free, so when they ignore the fake (as happens when pass commit is used), they will be on top of the QB before he can do anything. In short, the play works as though the offense has at least one fewer blockers than they actually do, because at least one player (and sometimes multiple players) don't even make a block attempt on anybody. It's not that they try to block and simply get beat. They don't even engage or attempt to block anybody (or they only do so after it's already too late).

If your going to PA from under center this year you have to keep the fullback into block. If it's out of I-Form you block the FB to the right and roll out to the left so that he picks up that extra man. While rolling you have to be making your read. In strong and weak I you block the FB to the inside of the line and roll out to the fullbacks side while making your read. You shouldn't get hit unless the person is controlling the Linebacker that's blitzing or takes control of the defensive line man that gets through. If that's happening then you keep your TE in and only have 3 people go out make sure you have a fly route as your safety on the PA if that's happening and your problems should be solved.

[Dr Sacked]

You are right Rhombic, i noticed this long ago and abdoned PA passes until i was suprisingly scorched online one day by them.

The following are the work-arounds i use. In the ACE Big, there are 2 PA passes where the fake handoff is off to the side. One is a roll out with a TE with a blue route (usually one of the 2 TEs are open). The other is a WR cross that also has a TE running a short flare. The fake handoff is way behind the tackles and avoids the DT coming straight through.

The downside is 1) the fake handoffs simulate running plays that don't work (like a stretch play) and 2) the second play still gets blown up by an outside (NB) blitz on pass commit against good teams.

[sixbecomeseven]

Top Critic- rhombic

[BuckeyePride33]

i was just playing with tennessee and it seems like the safties dont bite as much...however basically the only pass youre gonna complete is to the flat to a te or rb (if he made it through the pile) b/c you never have enough time to execute a route before your line collapses (btw ut returned 4 strs from a line that allowed 4 SACKS ALL YEAR and that got em an average rating of like 87)

[BuckeyePride33]

o

[Newski]

PA has been tricky for me and is usually abandoned until my o-line can dominate the D-line. My QB got destroyed last night on a PA and coughed the ball up before he could fully fake to the RB.

It's good to see new approaches to using PA effectively and I can't wait to use them.

It's like Rhombic21 is our head coach, studying films all day and coming up with viable solutions to handle next week's opponent. Thanks coach!