The Counter/Trap/Sprint/Quick Base Play

[rhombic21]

I have some very good news for the 10 of us that are still playing this game. I have discovered a way to make the blocking on these plays operate correctly.

I have not tested it online yet, but I will make a video at some point soon about it, to demonstrate why the plays don't generally work by default, and show how they do work after this adjustment. So far, this has worked for every single play in the game that has a pulling lineman that I have tested.

[Fluff E Bunny]

I have some very good news for the 10 of us that are still playing this game. I have discovered a way to make the blocking on these plays operate correctly.

I have not tested it online yet, but I will make a video at some point soon about it, to demonstrate why the plays don't generally work by default, and show how they do work after this adjustment. So far, this has worked for every single play in the game that has a pulling lineman that I have tested.

Does it involve taking control of a lineman or flipping the play?

[rhombic21]

Yeah, I guess it's not new then. I wanted to make a video to show what the problem was, but I guess there's no point.

Basically the problem with a lot of these plays is that one of the playside linemen (either a guard or OT, depending on the play) goes downfield instead of blocking the guy lined up over him. For some reason, if you lead block, this doesn't happen. It doesn't even matter who you lead block with. You can lead block with a WR and get the same results. Based on what I've seen, the best strategy is to lead block with the backside tackle and cut off the DT, which both helps the play, and gets you switched back to the HB quicker. Completely changes the functionality of the play.

[Fluff E Bunny]

Yeah, I guess it's not new then. I wanted to make a video to show what the problem was, but I guess there's no point.

Basically the problem with a lot of these plays is that one of the playside linemen (either a guard or OT, depending on the play) goes downfield instead of blocking the guy lined up over him. For some reason, if you lead block, this doesn't happen. It doesn't even matter who you lead block with. You can lead block with a WR and get the same results. Based on what I've seen, the best strategy is to lead block with the backside tackle and cut off the DT, which both helps the play, and gets you switched back to the HB quicker. Completely changes the functionality of the play.


Yeah this is one of the things I noticed early on...pretty sure I posted about it but am too lazy to search. But you're right, the blocking can be greatly improved by doing this, though I recommend turning off the insta-switch that puts you in control of the RB as soon as you engage the block. It ends up screwing up the RB. Still, if you can post a video, I think it would help those folks who don't know about it, which is probably most.



The other thing I mentioned about flipping the play I think I have posted about as well. Basically, it has to do with how the defensive line sets up by default, and how the blockers get assigned.


....DE......DT....DT.....DE
.....OT..OG..C..OG..OT..TE


Notice the B gap on the weak side, that's what you want to attack. But just run flipping doesn't always work. You normally want to play flip at the play call screen to get your TE on that side. There's more to it but I haven't played the game in months and can't remember it all. It is one of the tricks I used online because most people won't flip their defense if they see the TE weak side like that.

[WKUsSledgehammer]

Rhombic, I'd still like to see a vid on this, if you're up to it.

[Tennj-train]

I'm with WKU, I love your videos. It helps to see it in action for me.

[rhombic21]

Alright guys, here's the video:

http://files.filefront.com/counterplayblockingmpg/;9159916;/fileinfo.html

Sometime later today I'll upload a video of this concept in action during an online game against a top 100 player.

Also, just to note, on the video I went ahead and lead blocked with the right analog stick. I've heard some people arguing that lead blocking like that is kind of cheese because of the way that it works. You might find that to be over-effective against the computer. But you don't actually have to use the right analog to lead block in order to make this work. If you just run into the guy with the lineman and don't use the right analog controls, you get the same effect in terms of the blocking scheme improvements.

[rhombic21]

Here's the concept in action against back to back top 200 players:

http://files.filefront.com/counterblockingactionmpgmpg/;9160264;/fileinfo.html

[Cjones]

Thanks for the videos Rhomibc, I'm going to try to utilize this today or tomorrow.

[Catch28]

nice job again rhombic

might have to lab this

[rhombic21]

Just an update on this, you can actually lead block with the HB, if you don't want to control an offensive lineman. It'll give you the same effect, and switch you to the ballcarrier after the handoff.

[I OU a Beatn]

Just an update on this, you can actually lead block with the HB, if you don't want to control an offensive lineman. It'll give you the same effect, and switch you to the ballcarrier after the handoff.

That's actually really awesome. I was getting kind of tired of having to hit B really quick when I snap the ball.

[SunDevil]

I found if you flip the play to the short side, the lineman has less room to cover and can usually pick up a good block.

[grisch44]

Rhombic, this is great, thanks for sharing. I'm a big Buckeye fan and, of course, a big fan of the power O run game. The only thing close to the power O on next gen are strong side counters and I've had zero luck with them until I watched your video. Thanks.

[rhombic21]

Glad you found it helpful!

[Lionsault]

Great videos -- jealous of how well you run the ball. I run decently, but most of my stuff is on runs to the outside (toss, pitch, etc.). You use every type of running play very well.

[seandigs]

this is really tough to stop without selling out against the run. Best bet I had when playing against rhombic which helped a little bit was moving the line towards what you think is going to be the play side, and slanting the line back against the grain. Play with the opposite side linebacker incase the play goes the other way. For added effect blitz the strong safety as well.

I think rhombic ran for 170 yards in the first half, compared to a "mere" 60 or so 2nd half when I started using the above adjustments.

[rhombic21]

Yeah, a lot of people that give me problems with that are people that do a lot of DL slanting. I think that the game probably has some pursuit problems, although Oregon probably has pretty low rated LBs in terms of pursuit angles. Also, it seems like non-slanting DL are basically pointless. They don't blow anything up, get penetration, or prevent the OL from getting to the second level.

[grisch44]

Just an update on this, you can actually lead block with the HB, if you don't want to control an offensive lineman. It'll give you the same effect, and switch you to the ballcarrier after the handoff.

How do you pull this off Rhombic? Specifically, what controls? Thanks

[rhombic21]

Prior to the snap.

1) Press B (or whatever the equivalent is on PS3), and move the player select circle (the one that you would use to send a guy in motion) to the HB.

2) Press LB. The circle then turns red. To undo this, press LB again. Note that you can still select other players to motion by pressing B again.

[tiger22]

this is good stuff and lead bockling is great but ive only found 2 or 3 counter plays that are any good any suggestions on any good couter pklays?

[grisch44]

Gotcha, thanks. Is the right analog stick the only way to control the direction of the lead blocker and can you set which defender to block pre-snap?

[rhombic21]

Yes, the right analog stick is the only way to do the lead block controls, and no you can't set anybody to block pre-snap.

If you do the lead block with the HB method that I listed earlier, you don't have to even worry about executing any lead blocks, and it still alters the assignments so that the play works better.

[rhombic21]

this is good stuff and lead bockling is great but ive only found 2 or 3 counter plays that are any good any suggestions on any good couter pklays?

The most effective counter plays are those where the WRs have block assignments rather than the "draw your man downfield" assignments. But also, a lot of the counter play effectiveness is going to just be based on your ability to get the defense to overshift, so unbalanced sets can be good. Things like Strong I Twin TE, where you have an obvious strength to one side that the defense has to account for.

I also really like the counter out of Ace Twin TE WR, which involves the auto-motion. The play itself is really good, particularly against man to man, but then you have a slam play off that same action which goes more up the middle and towards the backside, and then you have at least one play action pass off of it.

The best counter in the game, without a doubt, is probably in Pistol Jumbo Wing, the Counter Strg play. Counter plays seem to work better out of the pistol just in general, simply because the timing is a little better for the blocks to set up.

[tiger22]

thanks i'll have to try that out cause im a person that likes to run 65% of the game

[tiger22]

and what playbook do u thinks is the most effective for this type of running game besides

[rhombic21]

I don't know that there's really any particular playbook. I would rather just start by looking at the team that you intend to use, figuring out what their personnel can do well, and then finding formations that fit that. I wouldn't base an entire offense around the counter play, rather the idea is to work the counter play in as a part of whatever playbook you decide to select.

[tiger22]

k thks i like to use florida state and ohio state so i like to run they both have strong lines

[rhombic21]

It really just depends on what you want to run. You could pick any number of playbooks and several different formations to be effective running the ball from. Just find the formations that you're comfortable moving the ball from. Maybe start by figuring out what personnel you want on the field, and then figuring out formations that put that personnel grouping out there. For example, if you have 2 good TEs and no really good lead blocking FB, you might want to go to more 2 TE formations instead of 1 TE 1 FB. If you have a good slot WR, you'd want a couple 3 WR formations. If you have a great lead blocking FB, you'd want to find a lot of I formations where he's on the field.

[tiger22]

k i'll check that out thks

[grisch44]

k thks i like to use florida state and ohio state so i like to run they both have strong lines

Tiger, I also roll with the Bucks. Currently, I'm using TAMU playbook. It has a good mix of formations including a lot of I. I also like Georgia, Balanced, Run Balanced and, of course, OSU. One thing I like about TAMU's playbook is the amount of play action boot and waggle plays. Let me know what other books you end up liking.

[tiger22]

well rugters playbook seems to be pretty effective they have a lot of different formations but im still looking

[rhombic21]

Man, the way this game manipulates the OL logic is so crazy. I have spent some time looking at counters against different defensive fronts, and I found something interesting. The way that the play is blocked without the adjustment (which is essentially a trap play) actually works better than the adjustment shown here against certain defensive fronts. In particular pinched + crashed defensive lines. The scheme actually takes advantage of the fact that the DE is crashing inside, because he then ends up running right into the puller, sort of like a trap block. In particular, I looked at 4-3 Normal Edge Sting (DL Pinched + Crashed) against I Normal Counter, and it actually worked a lot better without the adjustment than with it.

But the tricky thing is that they only work going one way, basically (if the defense flips the play, then it flips the way that it works). It's kind of weird to explain, but basically if you run a lot of these plays unadjusted to the right you get a pretty nice blocking scheme, but if you run it to the left it gets blown up, even when the formations are balanced. And against the Quarters 3 man pinch + crash, it doesn't work at all. It all has to do with who the offensive line decides to block. What's essentially happening with some of these crashed defenses (as far as the counter play is concerned) is that one or both of the tackles get confused and don't block the pinched defensive end, instead going downfield to block the second level. So the play ends up getting blown up from the backside. But there's also something where the defensive rush angles by the DL changes based on the play and whether it's flipped or not. Really hard to decipher this stuff, and try to figure out what's going on under the hood, so to speak. You look at how OL logic and DL pursuit logic changes based on things such as motion and alignment, or even defensive assignments, and it becomes clear that the OL run block/DL run defense AI is probably a mess.

Anyways, I just thought I'd throw that out there. A lot of people play these crashed + pinched defensive lines, and playing around with it in practice mode, it looks to me like you could make some pretty decent yards by running counter/trap plays to the right side as is -- although not universally. It didn't seem to work so well against the 3-3-5 plays that I was testing against.

[rhombic21]

OK after re-examining the issue further, this appears to be a lot less useful than I originally thought. One thing that I forgot to look at initially was bump and run. If the defense comes out in man to man bump and run, the safeties move down to about 5 yards off the ball. As a result of them being so close to the LOS, they are in much better position to defend the run, and turn the play back towards the middle or chase it from behind.

It does appear to be pretty useful against the 3-2-6, which is what I was initially testing against.

[grisch44]

Rhombic (or anyone really),
Any "gold nuggets" regarding using lead block controls in 09? I'm struggling a bit with my run game on Heisman.

thanks

[TubbyChooChoo]

Raise your hand if you wish Rhombic worked for EA.

http://www.r3sm.org/images/hand.jpg

[Fluff E Bunny]

Raise your hand if you wish Rhombic worked for EA.



Nah...I'd just end up hating him too. [laugh][laugh][laugh]

[TXHusker05]

Nah...I'd just end up hating him too. [laugh][laugh][laugh]

Fluff, you still think reversing the play on pulling guard runs works? I haven't labbed it any in practice, but I'd like the Quick Base to start working for me. I don't want to lead block though, I don't like being out of the control of my runner.

[Warbird]

Fluff, you still think reversing the play on pulling guard runs works? I haven't labbed it any in practice, but I'd like the Quick Base to start working for me. I don't want to lead block though, I don't like being out of the control of my runner.

The ONLY way I got that to work in 08 was if I motioned a WR to block the DE. Which is stupid.

[Fluff E Bunny]

Fluff, you still think reversing the play on pulling guard runs works? I haven't labbed it any in practice, but I'd like the Quick Base to start working for me. I don't want to lead block though, I don't like being out of the control of my runner.

Possibly. I know in practice I have seen some runs work much better into the default left side, and also some runs that I thought would work great to that side, but didn't.

I've all but stopped playing the game because of the playbooks, so I doubt I'll ever go back and lab this stuff again. No point.

[rhombic21]

FWIW, I've played around with this, and it's still beneficial on counter plays and the new "Power O" plays.

It works for both Madden and NCAA this year.

What it seems to do is cause the playside blockers to block the closest players to them, rather than trying to peel back and get guys to the middle or advance to the second level. This then gets a playside seal at the LOS, cutting off penetration better, and allowing your pulling blocker to get to the second level with a better angle on the LB.

A lot of times what happens is that the TE or OT (depending on who is the end man on the LOS playside) ignores the end threat of the defense (either a DE or LB), and goes to block somebody towards the middle (usually an LB). This then forces your FB and/or pulling blocker to be responsible for the unblocked man on the end, and because of the angle of the collision, you are often at such a place that you have very little room to cut back inside, but have to bounce way wide to get by the DE/LB.

Additionally, your OG and C pull and block backside players that don't really impact the play, whereas if you lead block, the block playside, which then allows your pulling linemen to get to the second level much easier, and prevents penetration up the middle.

Just a reminder, that you don't have to actually lead block. You can place the icon over the HB and then hit LB (or whatever the equivalent is on PS3) to make the icon light up red. It has the same impact on the blocking schemes, and you'll be transfered to the HB on the snap of the ball. Of course you could do this on every single play, run or pass, and you will control the QB on passing plays.

On Madden, unfortunately, I am pretty sure that doing this on passing plays will result in you having to control the HB during the play.

[Warbird]

Good to know. Why can't EA design these things properly? The OL has little clue how he fits into the overall blocking scheme, much as DBs don't understand their coverages. Seriously, is it that hard to block back?[glare]