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gnperdue
06-29-2007, 03:47 PM
Realistically, this is a wishlist item for 2009. I've seen no indication anything like this is in for NCAA '08, and I don't think there is time even if EA likes the idea. But, I'd like to go ahead and make my case anyway.

I think a fantastic and easy-to-implement item would be hidden player ratings. By "hidden ratings," what I really mean is non-numerical ratings, or letter-grade ratings. Using letter grade ratings instead of numerical ratings is more realistic and provides players with an interesting set of roster challenges. And they are relatively easy to implement - this is a great "bang for the buck" improvement.

First, it is important to recognize that not everyone would like hidden/letter ratings. Furthermore, for online play, the real numerical ratings should be available. Therefore, the way to implement this is to provide players with an option in their profile settings along the lines of "Ratings: <NUMERICAL>/<Letter>." The default would be numerical, but it could be toggled to: "Ratings: <Numerical>/<LETTER>." . When players started a new dynasty/franchise mode, the behavior would be set by their preferences at that time, and locked.

Suppose a gamer chose to use letter ratings. How would it work? For most ratings, the following table could be used:
99-97: A+
96-93: A
92-90: A-
89-87: B+
86-83: B
82-80: B-
79-77: C+
76-73: C
72-70: C-
69-67: D+
66-63: D
62-60: D-
59 and below: F

Now, not every rating could use that table. For example, according to that table, almost every offensive lineman in the game would have a speed rating of F! This would make it impossible to pick out meaningful information. So some ratings would have to be explicitly position dependent. So for the speed ratings of offensive linemen, the table above might look like this:
99-77: A+
76-73: A
72-70: A-
69-67: B+
66-63: B
62-60: B-
59-57: C+
56-53: C
52-50: C-
49-47: D+
46-43: D
42-40: D-
39 and below: F

Obviously, that table cannot distinguish how much better a guard with 90 speed would be than a guard with 77 speed, all other ratings equal, but that should be okay - there aren't any guards with 90 speed! (One thing to note is that the "solid" B speed here is faster than most linemen in the real game - take that as a hint EA! Linemen are too slow in the game!)

So what would the impact of these letter ratings be? Suppose a gamer had a mass exodus of cornerbacks and had to recruit four new ones. Let's say the players he got were rated overall (OVR): 79, 77, 76, and 70. Most gamers would put those players on the depth chart in that order without thinking too hard. Suppose instead though that they saw: C+, C+, C, and C-. Our gamer might still be tempted to start the two C+ players, but he doesn't really know exactly how much better the C+ players are than the C player. Maybe he's got two 79's and a 73, or maybe he's got two 77's and a 76! He'll have to look more closely at all the individual ratings. Of course, these will be a little ambiguous too. Maybe their zone coverage (ZON) ratings look like C+, D+, B, and C- (for the C+, C+, C, and C- OVR players, respectively). Depending on the scheme used, the C OVR player might be more valuable because of that unusually high coverage rating.

It is worth noting there is of course also ambiguity about how different the C and C- players from the example above really are. The careful gamer will want to not only examine the individual ratings for all these players more carefully, he'll also want to put them in different roles during games, and try to figure out what the ratings really are! This is exactly the kind of roster management challenge a lot of gamers would really enjoy. Some care would need to be taken so that CPU behavior was neutral with regards to letter grades (i.e., it should not be possible for a gamer to figure out very much by allowing the CPU to auto-order the depth chart), but that should not be difficult to implement.

Of course, it is easy to take letter-grade ratings to the next level by adding ERROR to the number-to-rating translation. While it would be fun to give gamers the ability to manage a scouting department, where better scouts make smaller errors in their analysis, that is tricky to manage and isn't necessary to make this interesting. (I'll explain why it is tricky in a little bit.)

Purely physical ratings, the sort of ratings that are set in the scouting combine and on pro-days, should have very little error. Suppose our cornerbacks above had speed (SPD) ratings of 97, 90, 95, and 97. Perfect translation should be something like A+, B-, A, and A+ (the SPD grade for cornerbacks would be a steeply falling, and probably non-linear, function). Error on these ratings shouldn't be larger than 1/3 of a letter grade. So we might imagine something like A+, B, A-, and A+ being the grades a gamer actually saw. There is some error, but not much.

However, instinct and technique ratings would naturally have a lot more error. Previously, we thought the ZON ratings of our cornerbacks were C+, D+, B, and C-. Imagine if the gamer instead saw: C+, C+, B+, D. Occasionally the scouts are getting it right, but they might be wrong by as much as a full letter grade! This error would then feed into the OVR grade. So maybe instead of C+, C+, C, and C-, our gamer would actually see C+, C+, C+, and D+ for the OVR ratings.

If gamers knew that the OVR ratings they had access to were influenced by attributes that were not being measured perfectly, figuring out the best way to set a depth chart becomes a lot more challenging. In this case, three of the cornerbacks have the same OVR rating. This means our gamer is going to have to really watch his players during game and pay close attention to the kinds of plays they make and don't make. He'll have to rotate players in and out of the CB1 and CB2 positions, and ultimately the starters are going to be the guys that make plays!

A final neat twist on this would be to have the errors on a scout's assessment shrink over time. So a freshman with a awareness (AWR) rating of B would have to be considered carefully, but for a senior, an awareness (AWR) rating of B+ could be considered quite accurate - possiblely it is a B or an A-, but for the most part it would be very trustworthy. Our freshman though might be anywhere between C and A!

These things coupled together (always having fairly accurate physical ratings, but more intangible ratings becoming more certain over time) would better simulate the real life tendency of coaches and scouts to overweight measurables like 40 yard dash times and also better replicate the preference among coaches for "known commodities" (i.e., upperclassmen) in starting roles on their squads.

Of course, letter ratings would apply to every player in the game (including recruiting targets and players on other teams). In this case, it would be necessary for the CPU controlled teams to only see letter grades too. If the CPU controlled teams also face the possibility of scouting errors, things might become complicated. It might be best to have, for every player in the game, just one set of "scouting" ratings that every team sees in the same way rather that have some large database of different errors for every team. For some variety, perhaps scouting departments themselves might be rated (say as 1-6 stars), and every department with the same rating could then have the same errors.

One interesting note to make here is that if the scouting errors are drawn from a normal distribution (a bell-curve), sometimes the lower rated scouting departments will be more accurate! In the long run though, the higher rated departments would be right more often, but this would still provide for interesting dynamics - occasionally highly rated players would look sub-par to the big schools (with highly rated scouting departments) and they would end up at a small school.

Ulitmately, all of these changes are easy to introduce and they potentially add a lot to the game. So come on EA, consider uncertain letter grades for player ratings!

JeffHCross
06-29-2007, 06:42 PM
In short, I agree with you. I like the uncertain, or more broad, letter grades versus the numbers. I don't really care if one player is a 98 whereas another is a 99. 1 pt isn't going to matter that much in the game.

( BTW: Good thinking allowing the choice between numerals and grades. Best way to get acceptance. And good job actually getting it into the Wishlist forum! )

redandblack
06-29-2007, 07:00 PM
I love this idea. I usually just go by overall, but I think using this system would make the game, or dynasty mode at least, more fun.

neystar206
07-03-2007, 10:25 PM
i like every thing you wrote, but how about no overall ratings, but still keeping the other ratings in letter-grade form.

so if you had two running backs with ratings that were close like this who would you start???

#20 FR : B- SPD C+ STR C AGI B+ ACC C AWR B- BKT

VS

#34 JR: B- SPD C- STR C AGI B ACC C+ AWR B BKT

I think your write up with adding to take out the overall rating would work really well in a dynasty mode that let you have a spring game and weekly practices during your season to set weekly depth charts.

Because I for one just look at the overall rating and set my teams roster with the highest rated players first then work my way down the list.

DonohoFlnkr
07-04-2007, 10:04 AM
I hate to bring the party to an end, but I absolutely HATE this idea.
I see where your going, and I too have wished that we had different evaulations for different positions, but where you run into a problem is moving players to other positions. Does an OL's ST ratings move from A+ to A- if you switch him to DT? What about LBs? If an MLB has a speed of 80, He is surely going to have an A to A+ for a SP rating, but if you need to move him to OLB, or one of the Safety position, EA would have to program some way for the rating to drop and re-evaulate his speed at the new position.

Another thing is that, even though this is a college game, the players are designed to be moved to Madden, if the user so chooses and has both games. That would create lots of work for them to first create this system, and then figure out a way to get it to translate the ratings back to a number system in order to import Draft Classes. Too much extra work when it can just as easily not be done and not take up programming time that can be spent on gameplay, returning old-gen features like 1AA teams and CAS, or even working on the 60 FPS problem for the PS3

I also think Tiburon would have problems in programming this because the numbered ratings are most likely tied into some sort of mathematical formulas and to rewrite those formulas with a new rating system, just for NCAA, would be time consuming, if not extremely difficult. Maybe one of you programmers on this board can correct me if I'm wrong, but computers (and the consoles are basically gaming-only-computers) still need numbers to calculate probabilities.

Finally, letters would reduce the 4.28 WR to the same speed as the 4.32 CB, and therefore, there would be no seperation, and a VERY BORING, if not non-existant passing game.

crazydeamon1225
07-04-2007, 11:57 AM
I also think Tiburon would have problems in programming this because the numbered ratings are most likely tied into some sort of mathematical formulas and to rewrite those formulas with a new rating system, just for NCAA, would be time consuming, if not extremely difficult. Maybe one of you programmers on this board can correct me if I'm wrong, but computers (and the consoles are basically gaming-only-computers) still need numbers to calculate probabilities.

Finally, letters would reduce the 4.28 WR to the same speed as the 4.32 CB, and therefore, there would be no seperation, and a VERY BORING, if not non-existant passing game.

They arent saying to get rid of the Numerical ratings just hiding them behind the Alphabetic grades. The 4.28 WR would still be faster than the 4.32 CB but you would have to see them against each other to see since you would only see Identical speed grades. Also the transfer to madden would still use the hidden numerical ratings.

neystar206
07-04-2007, 03:38 PM
I hate to bring the party to an end, but I absolutely HATE this idea.
I see where your going, and I too have wished that we had different evaulations for different positions, but where you run into a problem is moving players to other positions. Does an OL's ST ratings move from A+ to A- if you switch him to DT? What about LBs? If an MLB has a speed of 80, He is surely going to have an A to A+ for a SP rating, but if you need to move him to OLB, or one of the Safety position, EA would have to program some way for the rating to drop and re-evaulate his speed at the new position.

Another thing is that, even though this is a college game, the players are designed to be moved to Madden, if the user so chooses and has both games. That would create lots of work for them to first create this system, and then figure out a way to get it to translate the ratings back to a number system in order to import Draft Classes. Too much extra work when it can just as easily not be done and not take up programming time that can be spent on gameplay, returning old-gen features like 1AA teams and CAS, or even working on the 60 FPS problem for the PS3

I also think Tiburon would have problems in programming this because the numbered ratings are most likely tied into some sort of mathematical formulas and to rewrite those formulas with a new rating system, just for NCAA, would be time consuming, if not extremely difficult. Maybe one of you programmers on this board can correct me if I'm wrong, but computers (and the consoles are basically gaming-only-computers) still need numbers to calculate probabilities.

Finally, letters would reduce the 4.28 WR to the same speed as the 4.32 CB, and therefore, there would be no seperation, and a VERY BORING, if not non-existant passing game.

yeah just hiding the numbers like CRAZYDEAMON said. because in real life coaches / scouts don’t get ratings from players like overall 95 speed 91. they get stuff like 40 times then grade players for their positions by watching high school game tapes and live games, then once on the college campus, watching how the players play in practice.
I would think.

I like the non-numerical ratings because I think it would make the game harder in the areas of recruiting and game play.

gnperdue
07-04-2007, 04:54 PM
I hate to bring the party to an end, but I absolutely HATE this idea.


A lot of people have already come to my defense on this, but yeah, you obviously still have numerical ratings, they are just hidden. I guess I wasn't clear enough with my post, but what I was trying to communicate was the idea of being given imperfect information, at least on paper. Truly taking the numerical ratings out would be a huge amount of work. I offered this idea as a "cheap" way of making the game more fun for Dynasty players because just covering the ratings is easy to code. I could write it up in an afternoon if I worked at Tiburon.

In games players would play as they are really rated. So one corner on my team might have an "A" speed and the other might have an "A-" speed. What I would see in the game was a pair of fast corners. If I looked closely at replays, I might notice that one guy had better change of direction ability (more fluid hips) and maybe a better burst. So if the numbers were uncovered I might see 95/92/92 Speed/Agility/Acceleration for one and 94/96/97 for the other. The second guy is actually probably better. But I don't see those numbers, I have to try to figure them out by reading my scouting reports and watching the players play, and this adds a fun challenge to roster management. Imagine those two guys are fighting for the CB2 slot - forcing you to evaluate the players in games and practices (to some extent - you still have position coach and scouting reports) makes roster management tougher.

That is more work, but that is why I said to give people an option to leave ratings uncovered when they start their Dynasty. Also, for online play the ratings should absolutely be uncovered. I think that having the option to cover the ratings would offer real value to Dynasty players (it would be like a "Hard Mode" for Dynasty) and it would be very easy for EA to do.

pontiacnutt
07-04-2007, 05:34 PM
I like that alot, adds tremendos(sp) depth to Dynasty I like the idea of it being hard mode so the casual guys dont ever have to use it. The next add above that or in addition to that would be if the system could generate say a final season game(high school) & during recruiting you had the ability to watch tape, but for this to work the ratings system would actually have to mean something & you be able to see the differance on the field. Imagine scouting a stud LB & also noting the RB for the other team & deciding you wanna offer him too.( I have no life now if this took place divorce would be eminent) :)

DonohoFlnkr
07-04-2007, 05:54 PM
A lot of people have already come to my defense on this, but yeah, you obviously still have numerical ratings, they are just hidden. I guess I wasn't clear enough with my post, but what I was trying to communicate was the idea of being given imperfect information, at least on paper. Truly taking the numerical ratings out would be a huge amount of work. I offered this idea as a "cheap" way of making the game more fun for Dynasty players because just covering the ratings is easy to code. I could write it up in an afternoon if I worked at Tiburon.

In games players would play as they are really rated. So one corner on my team might have an "A" speed and the other might have an "A-" speed. What I would see in the game was a pair of fast corners. If I looked closely at replays, I might notice that one guy had better change of direction ability (more fluid hips) and maybe a better burst. So if the numbers were uncovered I might see 95/92/92 Speed/Agility/Acceleration for one and 94/96/97 for the other. The second guy is actually probably better. But I don't see those numbers, I have to try to figure them out by reading my scouting reports and watching the players play, and this adds a fun challenge to roster management. Imagine those two guys are fighting for the CB2 slot - forcing you to evaluate the players in games and practices (to some extent - you still have position coach and scouting reports) makes roster management tougher.

That is more work, but that is why I said to give people an option to leave ratings uncovered when they start their Dynasty. Also, for online play the ratings should absolutely be uncovered. I think that having the option to cover the ratings would offer real value to Dynasty players (it would be like a "Hard Mode" for Dynasty) and it would be very easy for EA to do.

That does make a difference. However, the complexity seems to allow for this to be a Coaching Legend type deal, so I don't thing we will see it anytime soon, but as part of a Coaching Legend (A mode which I would love to have, and I have included my own suggestions for this in the wishlist I will be posting in the next month or so- after I have seen all the changes for 08).

Maybe, there could even be an evaluation/scouting/film room section for this in Coaching Legend, where you have Freshmen reporting and you evaluate the new guys, then August Practice where you sort out your depth chart, and then in the off season, you get to scout film of HS players.

So, yes, I this would be a nice part of a very broad Coaching Legend Mode, BUT, I don't want to see this as part of the regular Dynasty/Play it now rosters.

AKS-74
07-04-2007, 06:32 PM
About the only way I would see this even happening in any future games would be either as Donoho said, some part of a Coaching Legend mode, or as an option to have either letter grades or numbers. No way in hell it makes it into the game as a standard feature with no way to choose which one you want.

Too many players of NCAA are casual gamers to make this a smart decision for EA to add it. Us, who like the challenges of recruiting, and harder dynasty modes and shit, we are in the minority.

If EA did this without an option to have either numerical or letter grades, depending in the preference, there would be a lot of casual gamers that would be pissed off at EA. So I don't really seeing this ever becoming a part of the game in the future.

oweb26
07-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Well Im not about to go into a long drawn out response, but I like the number system, your system seemingly has too many "holes" and "maybe's" in it, YOu example about the corner back was absouletly right but then comes into play what do u look for in a corner back are u looking for overall speed or accleration, I personal try to get both be overall speed only means sprint speed, but accel means I can make better jumps on the ball, I can catch up to the ball better, basically be a better corner.


I also saw that someone posted the letters being used by "real" coaches, okay its only so much realism a game can implement again see my first and really my only point, letters leave to much gray because putting that in A- would simply mean A-, the A guy would be better, its EA we are talking about its one extreme or another. Im not saying its a bad idea, but not a feasible one.

gnperdue
07-04-2007, 08:09 PM
About the only way I would see this even happening in any future games would be either as Donoho said, some part of a Coaching Legend mode, or as an option to have either letter grades or numbers.

Well, gee, about the second thing I said was that the ability to hide ratings would have to be optional.

Again - this is an easy to implement feature that hard-core Dynasty people will love and that people who don't want to deal with it never would have to.

AKS-74
07-04-2007, 08:20 PM
Well, gee, about the second thing I said was that the ability to hide ratings would have to be optional.

Again - this is an easy to implement feature that hard-core Dynasty people will love and that people who don't want to deal with it never would have to.

Well, gee, I'm sorry I didn't remember that when I browsed your post at 3 in the morning. [glare]

And I honestly don't see it being THAT easy of a feature to implement. There would be quite a bit of changes and new coding needing to be done to make this even possible.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from the programming classes that I have taken and the experience that I have in programming, it just doesn't seem like such a simple addition that you are trying to make it out to be. One of our resident professional programmers could probably give a more certain answer.

gnperdue
07-05-2007, 10:04 AM
Well, gee, I'm sorry I didn't remember that when I browsed your post at 3 in the morning. [glare]

And I honestly don't see it being THAT easy of a feature to implement. There would be quite a bit of changes and new coding needing to be done to make this even possible.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from the programming classes that I have taken and the experience that I have in programming, it just doesn't seem like such a simple addition that you are trying to make it out to be. One of our resident professional programmers could probably give a more certain answer.

Heh, easy with the glare there big guy! I'm not trying to start touble. [cool]

But, I disagree about the degree of difficulty - this would be quite easy. All you need is a small database that maps numbers to letters. You also just have to change the auto-sort algorithm for roster management to be neutral to hidden ratings when they are hidden and tweak CPU recruiting logic just slightly. I am confident you could code it up in a day.

If you want to go the extra mile and add uncertainty to ratings (i.e., instead of just seeing 96 as an "A", you also face the danger of your scouts mis-grading the player to be an "A-" or and "A+"), there is some more work. But not a lot really. It is a much easier feature set to implement than most, and it is one that Dynasty die-hards would [i]love[i], making it a great value addition, from EA's perspective.

jag215
07-26-2007, 08:25 PM
ok here my problem with this.

Recruiting in 08 has a system incredibly similar to this, it uses letter grades intead of numbers. Assuming ea were to pick up this idea how would the recruiting rankings look. would a+ speed on a HB prospect be an A+ compared to other prospects or would it translate to A+ speed in college. If the former is the way this would work (which i think it should) how would the A+ speed translate to college? B+, A-?

Overall it seems like a great idea.

gnperdue
07-27-2007, 09:53 AM
ok here my problem with this.

Recruiting in 08 has a system incredibly similar to this, it uses letter grades intead of numbers. Assuming ea were to pick up this idea how would the recruiting rankings look. would a+ speed on a HB prospect be an A+ compared to other prospects or would it translate to A+ speed in college. If the former is the way this would work (which i think it should) how would the A+ speed translate to college? B+, A-?

Overall it seems like a great idea.

Well, who knows what EA would do. What I would do, for simplicity, is make the recruiting grades basically identical to the grades you saw when the recruit showed up to camp. So if you recruited a tackle with a B+ at pass blocking, when he showed up, you would see a B+. You wouldn't know if that was an 87, 88, or 89, but it would still be a B+.

Making comparitive ratings seems like a potentially interesting idea, but probably too much work for the reward.

neystar206
09-30-2007, 03:53 AM
i like it...

mmorgan184
10-10-2007, 05:02 AM
What they really need to do is scale down the current ratings they have now and make only a handful of players above 90 overall while average players will be in the 70's. This will allow for the truly dominate players to shine and they will stick out more because an aspect of their game will be on a different level than everyone else.

oweb26
10-10-2007, 07:43 AM
What they really need to do is scale down the current ratings they have now and make only a handful of players above 90 overall while average players will be in the 70's. This will allow for the truly dominate players to shine and they will stick out more because an aspect of their game will be on a different level than everyone else.
Won't work, that will be more frustrating than the game already is, because you will have it where people will just throw to one person and then you have to manually cover that person leaving you vunerable to other things.

mmorgan184
10-12-2007, 03:07 AM
Won't work, that will be more frustrating than the game already is, because you will have it where people will just throw to one person and then you have to manually cover that person leaving you vunerable to other things.

Look at Brady and Moss.