What do you guys think of read plays

[rhombic21]

I've been tooling around with them in practice, and they seem to be reasonably effective, from certain formations. Strong I formations in particular, but I also noticed recently that the read play from Ace Normal seemed to work well.

This was just in practice mode though, so who knows what kind of junk defenses the computer has been running. Although I have had some good success with the Strong I read plays in limited game experiences. I think the strong I works so well because the FB is right in the way of that DT who is most likely to break through. I tested it out and didn't seem to have as much success in weak I or even standard I.

I'm not saying that you can run a full on zone blocking scheme like Minnesota or Michigan, but I do notice that some of these plays actually seem to be better "power" runs then the more traditional "isos" and "blasts". They seem to be hit or miss though. Seems like some formations they play is blocked decently most of the time, and some it isn't. You almost have to go through and lab each formation sepearately. Like Ace Jumbo is a formation that I thought would be really good at the read play, but it just isn't. But then Ace Y Trips I've seen that read play go for pretty good yardage before against the right defenses (mostly man to man defenses).

From Shotgun, I've found that some of the zone read plays can be devastating. The one from Shotgun Wing Trips Weak in particular seems to be really good at springing the HB to the edge.

[WhoUTestin]

I find them to work rather well out of the shotgun especially to the outside and even right up the middle too.

[rhombic21]

Yeah, shotgun works pretty well. But I was kind of surprised to see how well they were working out of Strong I formations, as well as some of the Ace formations.

Obviously it's hit or miss, in that you generally either get very long runs or almost nothing at all, but I guess that's kind of how it is in real life. However, with the strong I formations, I was noticing that it seemed to "miss" a lot less.

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that they work better against man to man defenses than zone defenses. That just seems to be the general trend that I'm noticing.

I'm also kind of noticing that the play either works or it doesn't. Even if you try and make a shift that seems like it would make sense, it doesn't seem to help that much, and sometimes it actually hurts. For example, I was messing around with Michigan's playbook with their Ace Big Wing formation, which allows you to motion the leftside TE into the backfield, like an H-Back or a fullback almost. So I thought that would really help the read play because then that guy could give me an extra blocker on that side. But it really didn't seem to help all that much, and in fact it appeared to hurt the play more than anything else.

I've basically been running them as inside out type plays. I look to take them inside first, and then I bounce it outside if nothing's there or I see a huge hole.

I've also noticed that the "zone" play from Pro Normal seems to work VERY well. I probably get as many nice runs out of that as I do bad runs.

I don't really understand why they work when they do and why they don't when they don't. And I'm not sure what, if any, attributes on the OL help the blocking out. I originally thought it was the OT since the play runs right behind him, but now I'm also noticing that if your guards and center are good, you have a lot more/better cutback lanes. And I haven't really figured out when to use them and when not to. I was just kind of surprised to see how well they were working. I'd basically written them off as completely useless, except for a few random homeruns.

[cmq]

I haven't given them much of a chance in practice mode, but I honestly can't remember one time I've gotten a medium-to-large gain on a read play. I don't call them at all anymore.

[bossman]

Like both of you said, they work great out of most shotgun sets. And like cmq, I never call them out of any other formation, for the same reason as him. As for the defense in man or zone, in general runs work better against man than zone, at least in the game. Against zone I can get those 3-4 yard gains before the backers step up, but against man you have all the db's just running with their back to the play, makes for big gains.

I don't know why I'm saying this, I don't know nearly as much as le rhombic, but meh.

[rhombic21]

I'm not sure. They seem to work really well against some defenses, and not so well against others. It has something to do with how the DL is aligned and how they stunt/crash.

[rhombic21]

Ace Y Trips seems to have a very effective read play. The slot WR seems to block pretty well, and you still have a TE on that side to seal the edge. I busted a beautiful 20+ yard run with Virginia Tech's slow ass HB versus Ohio State. Ace Normal worked well in practice, but hasn't been so great during games. I think a big part of that is that in practice I was cutting a lot of runs back and taking them over the weakside, but it's harder to do that online if there's even a little bit of lag.

[Makaveli_Reborn]

Rhombic what difficulty are you on?

I've used read plays occasionally, but for the most part they aren't a part of my gameplan. Under the right circumstances they can be quite effective, but there are too many things that can go wrong for my liking.

I've found through 150 or so games against the computer (80% on AA, 20% on Heisman) that just straight running plays offer the same kind of reward without as much risk.

I've sort of honed my offense over all these games and I just haven't found a reason to keep coming back to these plays. I do use Option Passes though.

[rhombic21]

I play online, so it's on AA.

You may be right about the risk reward thing.

I have not yet determined if it's completely random or not. I think that if you could figure out what situations to use them in, they might be worth including in a gameplan.

[JimOttoFan]

Shotgun Wing Trips Weak Zone Read are excellent plays I come back to again and again.

I have found that they do not work against every team. The defensive schemes and personnel of some teams prohibit good gains from these plays. I tend to attack a team offensively like Bill Walsh of the 80's*, by trying a variety of plays in the first couple of drives to see how they work, and then I adjust. If these plays work, I will force feed them to the defense. If they do not, I will hold off and try them again later in the game to see if anything has changed. A few times the Shotgun PA Read Flow has been stuffed all game and then I have broken a 30 yard gamebreaking TD run out of it.

A tremendous factor in the success of these plays is the blocking. An excellent blocking WR can make the difference between a 5 yard or 25 yard gain on the Shotgun Wing Trips Weak Zone Read.

The Shotgun PA Read Flow has three very effective options even if we ignore the WR's. Shift the outside WR to the opposite side of the field, then...
1.) Run with the HB (if the D-Line stays even with the O-Line).
2.) Flare pass to the HB (if the D-Line shifts outside the O-Line).
3.) A speedy QB can run with the HB on his flare route and continue on a scramble or stop behind the line and hit any receiver with a pass.

*I humbly request your tolerance in comparing myself to Bill Walsh. I only did this to describe something I do in this video game because of my respect for Bill Walsh as one of my idols. His success was in real life and not a video game. But this does not stop rabid fans, such as me, from imitating him and having fun. I am in no way stating that I am anywhere near as good, smart, effective, successful, or great as Bill Walsh. I am only a guy having fun on a video game.

[rhombic21]

I found 2 more zone plays that seem to work pretty well

I Wing TE (which is a cool ass formation) - HB Tackle (You can take this weakside pretty easily)

Ace Bunch - HB Read (if you notice, they actually sub out the WRs and put in two TEs on this play)

It's probably not worth messing with, and I wouldn't call them with the game on the line, but they sure are beautiful to see when it works.

[rhombic21]

I'm pretty sure that these plays work really well against man to man coverage, particularly if there's an inside blitz, and not so great against zone blitzes.

I found another one too.

Ace Bunch TE (HB Read) - You can motion the weakside TE and he goes into the backfield sort of like a fullback. Works awesome against man coverage. Not so much against zone.

[Thompson219]

i was just about to post that....Running a 4 wideout playaction play(can't remember whichone) against man coverage and just holding down X to give the hb the ball is a money first down if not more..If they go in a zone, chances are you can bomb it deep to the weak side safety.

[Mr. Option]

i get blown up against the comp.

but when i play a person, i get huge yardage and i really base my offense of them if they do work at the start of a game.


the formations that i use them the most are out of Shotgun Normal HB WK, Ace Jumbo, and then there is a Ace Jumbo in the oregon playbook that has two tightends off the line right next to each other.

[rhombic21]

Damn, I had an 80 yarder off a read player earlier today, followed by an 8 yarder where I walked into the endzone, but I stupidly didn't record it.

There are definitely certain defenses where the read play is designed to work. I'm just not sure exactly which ones yet.

[toshimelonhead]

I have found there are times when using read plays, half of the line doesn't block their guy.

[rhombic21]

Probably the most successful read play I've ever had in an online game:

http://media.putfile.com/readtdmaimi

(sidenote, that was the second of two great games against that guy, and the above play was the only offensive TD I scored in that game)

[ZachArt002]

Read plays with a lead blocker have become a staple of my running game. With the FB in there, he can clean up the DE/LB that so often comes through unblocked. I don't like to call it out of a singleback formation unless it has two TEs on the same side though.

[rhombic21]

I agree in principle. In singleback I call it only against defenses that I'm pretty sure aren't blitzing. Sometimes you catch people dropping everyone into zones or playing cover 2 man, and even spreading the line. That's when they can be deadly by going up the middle.

You can do singleback more often if you have really good guards. You'll get some 0 yard/runs for losses, but you can also get some big gainers.

[rhombic21]

More zone blocking:

http://media.putfile.com/zoneblocking3

Again, I'm not saying that you can make an offense out of it, but there are some huge yards to be had here.

[rhombic21]

Just in case anybody was wondering how this works in real life, I did some research. Watch the "play break down" video:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncf/insider/columns/story?columnist=davie&id=2456671&univLogin02=stateChanged&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncf %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3ddavie%2 6id%3d2456671%26univLogin02%3dstateChanged#

If you watch the play break down, it makes it pretty clear why this doesn't work on the game. EA doesn't have double team blocks incorporated at all on this game.

[Mr. Option]

When do you decide to cutback?

i only do it when i see an overload on my strong side play, then spin back and there usually is a clear lane, because of my weakside tackle still engaged with the end.


ive seen, with the Denver Broncos and there reads they focus on their backs making cutbacks.

[rhombic21]

I'm still working on that. I may make it a pre-snap read or something, because it's very hard to read all of the possible holes that quickly.

[Fluff E Bunny]

Just in case anybody was wondering how this works in real life, I did some research. Watch the "play break down" video:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncf/insider/columns/story?columnist=davie&id=2456671&univLogin02=stateChanged&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncf %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3ddavie%2 6id%3d2456671%26univLogin02%3dstateChanged#

If you watch the play break down, it makes it pretty clear why this doesn't work on the game. EA doesn't have double team blocks incorporated at all on this game.


I believe I posted about this in the 360 board. The idea with zone blocking is that you start with double teams, and those guys have to work in tandem and know when to trade off the double-teamed man and go second level. It requires smart, quick linemen.

On the 360 (dunno bout last gen), EA seems to think zone blocking just means all of the blockers just block out in the same direction. There is no double-teaming nor advancing to the second level. In fact, the starting animation for the blocking in the zone plays often means that they block NOBODY and your RB is dead in the backfield. The plays basically only work on non-blitzing defenses.

[Mr. Option]

on 360, are you calling the strech plays, read plays.


my offense on 360 is alot of ace, i form strech plays.
and i rack up alot of yards.

I dont ever recall being blown up in the backfield unless it was a controlled opponents defender.

[Fluff E Bunny]

on 360, are you calling the strech plays, read plays

No. Stretch plays are man-blocked on 360.

EDIT: Fortunately, there are very few zone blocked plays on 360.

[rhombic21]

I believe I posted about this in the 360 board. The idea with zone blocking is that you start with double teams, and those guys have to work in tandem and know when to trade off the double-teamed man and go second level. It requires smart, quick linemen.

On the 360 (dunno bout last gen), EA seems to think zone blocking just means all of the blockers just block out in the same direction. There is no double-teaming nor advancing to the second level. In fact, the starting animation for the blocking in the zone plays often means that they block NOBODY and your RB is dead in the backfield. The plays basically only work on non-blitzing defenses.

This is all very true on PS2 as well. The only exception seems to be with man to man blitzes that come right up the middle, like Nickel Thunder Green. The linemen shoot off at just the right angle so that they pick up both LBs, and then if you get a decent seal block from the TE, you can break off huge gains. Also, if you run away from the blitz, they can be effective. Like if they blitz the LB on the left side, and you run to the right side, it can work. You just can't run into the teeth of the blitz.

The advantage of the zone blocking (on the game) is that linemen do a MUCH better job of blocking people at the second level. So if you can pick up the initial defenders at the LOS, you can break some HUGE gains. Thus I find that it works decently well when you have a lead blocker in the backfield (either a FB, or in some formations you can motion a wing TE to the backfield), because that guy will often pick up at least one of the DLinemen that sneaks through the OL. They also work well against "soft" defenses, like the 3-2-6 or Nickel defenses, which are decently common against Ace formations. So even without a lead blocker, you can get some big gains out of Ace formations, if the defense spreads out to cover the WRs. I'm thinking that you could actually run a pretty decent Ace, spread type offense with a heavy reliance on read plays, dive plays, and passing plays. Get them to back out of the blitz with the pass, and then reel off huge gains with the run. And then use dive/slam plays for short yardage.

Again, you clearly can't use this as a base offense for a power team. You couldn't, for example, implement a Michigan or Minnesota style running game. But it does seem like there's something to be had here.

[supersigma2of21]

After seeing this posted over at MaddenMania I decided to give it a try in my new dynasty with Florida Atlantic. It was the 4th game of the season at #20 South Carolina. My impact HB, Edgecomb, went for 100+ averaging about 4 ypc on strictly zone blocking plays. I'm using Florida Atlantics playbook so these are the plays that I ran...


Formation Play
Ace Big Wing HB Read
Ace-Y-Trips HB Read
I-Form-Twins HB Lead
Pro-Normal HB Zone Lead
Shotgun-Y-Trips HB Wk HB Zone
Zone Read
Goal Line HB Read


I ran those plays and those plays only. They are pretty good and like you said, either hit or miss. Edgecomb had one I thought he was gonna take to the barn.

[rhombic21]

Take a look at I Wing TE. That's probably the best zone blocking play in the game, in my experience.

[supersigma2of21]

It seems that they are "miss" more often when the cpu makes pre-snap defensive line adjustments.

[Mr. Option]

i prefer the zone reads out of the shotgun.


Ace Big for me seems to have the biggest chance of getting blown up in the backfield, but i tried the line shifts and got this.


if the defense does not pre-snap adjust, then line shift to the opposite way the play is going.

if the defense does pre-snap adjust, lets say to the side where your play is going. Then line shift the way the play is going to get a cutback.



thats all i got so far.

[rhombic21]

That's an interesting idea.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly causes the DT to get through untouched. It's definitely not random. There are some plays where, regardless of motions or slide protections, the DT comes in unblocked almost everytime. And there are other plays where he almost never comes in unblocked. It has something to do with the way that the way that the DL is crashing or rushing or something.

[Fluff E Bunny]

That's an interesting idea.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly causes the DT to get through untouched. It's definitely not random. There are some plays where, regardless of motions or slide protections, the DT comes in unblocked almost everytime. And there are other plays where he almost never comes in unblocked. It has something to do with the way that the way that the DL is crashing or rushing or something.

I had briefly messed with it on 360 to figure it out. Basically, it was a combination of where the DT aligned relative to the OG, the direction of the play, and what attack path the DT was assigned.

[rhombic21]

I had briefly messed with it on 360 to figure it out. Basically, it was a combination of where the DT aligned relative to the OG, the direction of the play, and what attack path the DT was assigned.

This is basically what I have concluded. I think that you're right that those are the variables involved. It's difficult to translate that into practical applicability with playcalling though, because I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for.

It'd be nice if I could read the defensive front, and make a guess about what play the defense has called, and then decide whether to get out of the play or not. But it seems pretty complicated to individually go through all of the plays and figure out which ones have DT attack paths that blow up read plays.

Like I said, the furthest that I've gotten so far is that it seems like zone blitz plays tend to coincide with that more than anything else.

[rhombic21]

I just went into practice mode and was playing around with Weak Twin TE. I think I may have found the best inside running play on the game (a read play with a slight adjustment). I will update after a few games of testing.

Does it make me a sick person that this excites me greatly?

[Fluff E Bunny]

Does it make me a sick person that this excites me greatly?

We pretty much all have already come to the conclusion that youre a sick person well before this. :D :D :D :D

[rhombic21]

I found an intersting tidbit out, which is related to my above post. TEs that are set off the LOS don't really help the play that much from their default location. Like in Twin TE formations.

[supersigma2of21]

I found an intersting tidbit out, which is related to my above post. TEs that are set off the LOS don't really help the play that much from their default location. Like in Twin TE formations.
I noticed this as well with Ace Big Wing. It works pretty well when I audible the Wing TE into the backfield as an H back. I had one almost go for a score in the ULM game in my Florida Atlantic dynasty. Edgecomb finished with 78 yards on 30 attempts though. :(

[JimOttoFan]

...the best inside running play on the game...!!!!

Rhombic, you are a sick, sick man.


Now sit down and type us a paragraph about it.

[rhombic21]

Not as good as it appeared to be.

Actually, not good at all.

Victim of the "Olinemen block in practice but not in the game" phenomenon.

Seriously, it worked everytime in practice for 8+ yardage. In games, probably an average of -2 yards.

[supersigma2of21]

Oh man, I just had a nice one in coach mode. I-Form Twins - HB Lead

I'm in the 6th game of the season against Penn...yeah, I know. I call the play. Souverain gives to Edgecomb. The FB goes to the second level and is about to attack the SS. But, the TE pancakes the SS and the FB gets the FS who's coming over. This springs Edgecomb for a 22 yard score.

It was a thing of beauty!!!

[JimOttoFan]

Rhombic, thanks for going on this quest and taking us with you.

So far, for me, the best inside running play I have found is Ace Big HB slam, followed by the Ace Slot HB Slam, Maryland I Double ISO, Wishbone Wide HB ISO, and any triple option handed off to the (gasp) FB.

It helps to run these when there are less than 8 in the box, and the D-Line has some gaping gaps, so I always have one of these plays in my audibles for use against the CPU or my son-in-law.

[rhombic21]

Yeah, those are definitely the best inside running plays.

I had labbed Weak Twin TE Zone read, and tried motioning the TE and hiking it just as he crossed the RT. In practice, the TE and FB would just demolish whoever came unblocked and there would literally be nobody for 8 yards. In the game, the guards and center were getting stoned at the LOS and pushed back into the HBs face, so I couldn't get to the cutback lanes that the FB and TE were creating.

I need to figure out which sorts of running plays to use to compliment the HB reads. This is what I was saying that if you could get it down to figure out how to predict whether it would work or not, then you could figure out other running plays that would force your opponent into defenses that were vulnerable to the zone blocking.

[supersigma2of21]

Latest game running zone blocking plays exclusively...

DiIvory Edgecomb vs. Penn
27-192 Yds, 4 TD

This performance has an asterisk though because it was against Penn.

[rhombic21]

Damn. Do you have a baseline to compare this to, for what kind of numbers he'd be putting up with a non-zone blocking scheme?

[supersigma2of21]

Damn. Do you have a baseline to compare this to, for what kind of numbers he'd be putting up with a non-zone blocking scheme?
Not really. He put about 130 against Clemson's defense which was before zone blocking and he put up 55 against Kansas State which was before zone blocking. His 4 touchdowns were 22, 28, 35 and another one that was over 20 I think. It was Penn though so...

[RollBama1237]

I think the reason supersigma was so successful was because it seems like he is a coach moder. A lot of users get antsy for a run to develop and push a zone play either too far outside or cut it back too soon, and get a huge loss. I think that if you coach-mode zone read running plays, you'll have a lot more success because the computer is running the play the exact way it was designed to be run.

Adding a user on defense of course complicates this, because of the stupid-ass "jump" button and being able to knock the OL on their ass more often than a computer player, but still, I think that is a huge difference.

[supersigma2of21]

I think the reason supersigma was so successful was because it seems like he is a coach moder. A lot of users get antsy for a run to develop and push a zone play either too far outside or cut it back too soon, and get a huge loss. I think that if you coach-mode zone read running plays, you'll have a lot more success because the computer is running the play the exact way it was designed to be run.

Adding a user on defense of course complicates this, because of the stupid-ass "jump" button and being able to knock the OL on their ass more often than a computer player, but still, I think that is a huge difference.
I've gotta agree with you RollBama. When you 'coach mode' you have the opportunity to see certain things. It is the primary reason for my hits and my misses. Now for me, a miss is a loss, no gain or a short gain that had the POTENTIAL to be longer or even a big gain.

I can think of 1 play in particular. Edgecomb gets the handoff and heads outside. His WR teammate has a CB completely engaged and he runs into the blocker-blockee confusion making this only a 2 yard game when it could've been 6-8 or maybe more since he's an impact guy. ;)

Since you have to rely on your guy's awareness, the hits and misses balance out and make the end result very realistic.

Now that I'm in conference play in the Sun Belt, Edgecomb could possibly have more games like the last one that I posted. :D

[supersigma2of21]

***Update***

DiIvory Edgecomb vs. Louisiana Lafayette
31-216, 2 TD

[supersigma2of21]

Well, it has finally come to an end. I'm facing MTSU and Edgecomb has 8 carries for -1 yards. I've all but given up on the run down 35-0...at halftime. I'm forced to pass with my not so good QB.

[Mr. Option]

i am struggling wit these plays. The only read play i can get to work is goalline, and i switch to the weak side then motion my offset tightend.


any other plays are blown up in the backfield.

[Mr. Option]

i still cannot get these things to work at all.

did you say that having a fullback helps?


frustrating... very.

[JimOttoFan]

What team are you playing with? What is your personnel?

I play 90% of the time with my dynasty team, so my guys are much better than the CPU's. With that in mind, Shotgun Spread PA Read Flow works wonderfully well for me. Some games, against a particularly good defense, the play might not work consistently, but against most teams it does. Put the outside WR in motion to the opposite side. The QB has the option of handing off or passing to the HB. The key is how many defenders are outside the OT; If the DE has lined up straight on the OT and there is only one LB outside, run.